|SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY|
Volume 12, part 2, page 248:
He [John de Verdun (d. 1274)] m., 2ndly, before 1267, Eleanor.(f)
... Presumably his s. Humphrey, b. on the vigil of Pentecost 1267, was by the 2nd wife (Dugdale, Mon., vol. v, p. 661). Nothing is known of Eleanor's parentage but she may have been a Bohun. A seal, said to be hers, bears the Bohun and Verdun arms (Staffs Hist. Coll., William Salt Arch. Soc., 1913, p. 298) and the name of her s., Humphrey, may be significant.
Further evidence supports the identification of Eleanor as a Bohun, probably a daughter of Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Hereford (d. 1275). She was still living in 1277.
Cris Nash, in December 2001 and January 2002, reported that the identification of Eleanor as a Bohun is supported by M.S. Hagger [in The fortunes of a Norman family: the de Verduns in England, Ireland and Wales 1066-1316 (2001)], who refers also to a gift of lands in Debden by her son Humphrey to Humphrey de Bohun, in exchange for Nuthampstead [Debden, in Essex, having been previously held by the Bohuns].
Douglas Richardson, in January 2002, provided further confirmation of the Bohun connection - after John de Verdun's death, Eleanor, in 1277, conveyed lands in Debden to John de Grey and Maud his wife [citing Feet of Fines for Essex, vol. 2, p. 13 (1913-1928)]. He also suggested that Maud, the wife of John de Grey, was Eleanor's daughter, and that if so, this would explain the consanguinity between two couples later said to be related in the 4th degree of kindred - (i) John de Bohun, earl of Hereford (d. 1335/6) and his wife Margaret Basset (a granddaughter of John de Grey) and (ii) John de Lisle, Lord Lisle (d. 1355) and his wife Maud de Grey (another granddaughter of John). If this explanation is correct, it suggests that Eleanor was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Hereford (d. 1275), rather than his son Humphrey (d. 1265), because if she were daughter of the latter the second couple would be related in the 4th and 5th degrees.
[This question and its ramifications were also discussed by John P. Ravilious, Nat Taylor and Rosie Bevan.]
Volume 12, part 2, page 250:
He [Theobald de Verdun] m., before 6 Nov. 1276, Margery.(c) He d. 24 Aug. 1309 at Alton afsd., aged about 61, and was bur. 13 Oct. in Croxden Abbey, in that co.
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1272-81, p. 165. By right of his wife he held ¼ of the hundred of Bisley, co. Gloucester (Plac. de Quo Warranto, p. 257).
Douglas Richardson, in January 2002, produced evidence from a Year Book, suggesting that Margery was the daughter of one Humphrey, the father of an earl of Hereford, that she had previously been married to "Robert de W." [citing A.J. Horwood, ed., Year Books of the Reign of King Edward the First, Michaelmas Term, Year XXXIII and years XXXIV and XXXV, pp. 170, 171 (1879)], and that her marriage to Theobald de Verdun took place by 1274 [citing Victoria County History, Gloucestershire, vol. 11, p. 1]. Margery was dead by Michaelmas Term 1303 [A. J. Horwood, ed., Year Books of the Reign of King Edward the First, Years XXXII-XXXIII, pp. 28, 29 (1864)].
Cris Nash reported that M.S. Hagger [in The fortunes of a Norman family: the de Verduns in England, Ireland and Wales 1066-1316 (2001)], had also identified her as a Bohun, though he called her Matilda. Hagger cited a plea dated 1280, according to which Theobald and Margaret "had entry" to the manor of Castle Walden [Essex] through Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Hereford [brief abstract printed in William Salt Archaeological Society, original series, vol. 6, part 1, p. 106 (1885)].
The entry in the Year Book is open to interpretation, but taken at face value it implies that Margery's father was Humphrey de Bohun (d. 1265), as no other Humphrey had a son who was earl of Hereford. On this view, the Humphrey mentioned in the 1280 plea would be Margery's brother. But note that this leads to a possible difficulty of consanguinity, as it would imply that Margery's son Theobald and his wife, Maud de Mortimer, were second cousins.
[This question was also discussed by John P. Ravilious and Doug Thompson.
The evidence about the date of Margery's death was provided by Douglas Richardson
in September 2004.
Item last updated: 7 November 2004.]