|SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY|
Volume 12, part 2, page 441:
He [John (de Welle), Lord Welles (d. 1361)] m. (post-nuptial settlement Quin. of Hil. 1344/5) Maud, probably da. of William (DE ROS), 2nd LORD ROS (of Helmsley), by Margery,(g) sister and coh. of Giles (DE BADLESMERE), 2nd LORD BADLESMERE, 1st da. of Bartholomew, 1st LORD BADLESMERE.
Her wardship of John is a pointer to Maud's parentage. See note "d" above.
Douglas Richardson, in June 2002, pointed out heraldic evidence supporting a Welles-Ros marriage [citing Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 5th series, vol. 9, pp. 84-87 (1935-1937)], and evidence from a late-15th-century pedigree that William, Lord Ros, did have a daughter Maud [citing Surtees Society, vol. 144, pp. 161-164 (1930)].
In November 2004, he provided details of a seal attached to a charter of Maud, widow of John de Welle, dated 20 May 1373. The seal bore impaled arms, the dexter side illegible, the sinister side showing three water bougets (?), two and one (for Ros) [Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the Department of Manuscripts in the British Museum, vol. 3, p. 651 (1894)]. The charter is dated at Parkhall, Essex (otherwise known as Gaynes Park, in Theydon Garnon), which John and Maud had held jointly [British Library, modern transcript of Harleian Charter 53 H 36; Victoria County History, Essex, vol. 4, p. 266].
[Item last updated: 22 February 2005.]
Volume 12, part 2, pages 442, 443:
He [John (de Welle, afterwards Welles), Lord Welles (d. 1421)] m., (?) 1stly,(i) before May 1386, Eleanor,(j) sister of John (DE MOWBRAY), EARL OF NOTTINGHAM, and of Thomas (DE MOWBRAY), DUKE OF NORFOLK and EARL MARSHAL, 1st da. of John, 4th LORD MOWBRAY, by Elizabeth, suo jure (according to modern doctrine) BARONESS SEGRAVE, da. and h. of John (DE SEGRAVE), 4th LORD SEGRAVE. She, who was b. shortly before 25 Mar. 1364, may have been living in 1399.
Page 442, note i:
According to G.E.C., in the 1st edn. of this work, citing R. E. Chester Waters (N. and Q., 6th Ser., vol. vii, p. 287), who, however, gives no evidence, he m., in or before 1366, Cicely, who was then living. No confirmation has been found of this. Cf. Misc. Gen. et Her., 5th Ser., vol. ix, p. 48.
Page 442, note j (continued on page 443):
Idem, pp. 46-48, citing in extenso Harl. Ch. 55, B.24, whereby the manor of Welle, &c., was conveyed by feoffees to John de Welle and Eleanor, da. of John de Mowbray, his wife. Although this charter is dat. 1361-68 in B.M. Index to Charters and Rolls, vol. i, p. 793, Eleanor was not b. until 1364.
The limit used to date the charter is apparently the death of Eleanor's father in 1368. Douglas Richardson, in February 2002, provided confirmatory evidence that the charter should be dated before about 1369 [citing Surtees Society, vol. 108, pp. lxvi-lxix (1903), to show that Richard de Ravenser, mentioned in the charter as provost of Beverley, resigned that office about 1369].
The statement that Eleanor was born in 1364 is based on a grant to a servant for bringing the news of her birth [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1367-70, p. 237], but possibly this may have been given at a later date, rather than immediately after the birth.
[This question was also discussed, in February and May 2002, by Brad Verity.]
Volume 12, part 2, page 443:
He [John (de Welle, afterwards Welles), Lord Welles (d. 1421)] m., (?) 2ndly, before 13 Aug. 1417, Margery.(b)
Misc. Gen. et Her., 5th Ser., vol. ix, pp. 46-47; Cal. Close Rolls, 1419-22, p. 189.
Douglas Richardson, in July and August 2002, posted evidence suggesting that Margery held half the advowson of Saltfleetby St Peter, Lincolnshire [citing Canterbury and York Society, vol. 73, p. 18 (1984)].
[Item last updated: 22 April 2004.]
[Some further information was provided by John Brandon.]
Volume 12, part 2, page 449, note g:
He [John (Welles), Lord Welles (d. 1498/9)] is said to have had [by Cecily, 3rd daughter of Edward IV] 2 daughters, Elizabeth and Anne, both of whom d. v. p. young, the latter being bur. in the church of the Austin Friars, London (Sandford, Gen. Hist., p. 418; Stow, Survey of London, ed. Kingsford, vol. i, p. 178).
In 1498, a marriage was being arranged between Elizabeth and Thomas Stanley - later Earl of Derby (d. 1521) - but she died later in the year [Douglas Richardson, November 2003, citing Michael Jones, The King's Mother: Lady Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Richmond and Derby, p. 153 (1992), who cites Lancashire Record Office, DDK 2/14].
[Item last updated: 29 December 2003.]