Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Say


See also "proposed" section

Volume 11, page 465:
GEOFFREY DE SAY I, br. and h. male, being 2nd s. of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was b. probably not later than 1135,(k) and possibly earlier.
Note k:
His s. Geoffrey m. after the end of 1175 and before 1180; see text below. Geoffrey de Say I may be the Geoffrey de Say who attested a charter of his uncle Gilbert de Say in 1151 (Round, Cal. Docs., no 522).

It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180 (see correction to p. 467 below). Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 467:
He [Geoffrey de Say (d. by 1214)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and da. of Hugh MAMINOT(n).
Note n:
Confirmation of grant in 1168 by Walkelin Maminot to Bermondsey Abbey of the advowson of the church of Birling and of a similar grant by Geoffrey de Say, by "Galfridus de Say filius Galfridi de Say et Alicie de Cheinnei uxoris sue"; followed by confirmation by William de Say, son of Geoffrey de Say, son of Geoffrey (Thorpe, Reg. Roff., p. 169; B.M. MS. Cott. Claud. A viii, f. 116d/169; Dugdale, Mon., vol. v, p. 89). Grant by Geoffrey de Say son of Alice de Chetnay of land in Edmonton, temp. Ric. I (Cat. Anc. Deeds, no. A2035). After about 1200 the Say barony consisted almost wholly of fees formerly held by Alice's nephew, Walkelin Maminot.

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

  1. On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].
  2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the land of 'Pecham' or 'Petham'* to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [A. Heales, Records of Merton Priory, pp. 28, 29 (1898), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out [Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924)], according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

(*The interpretation of this place-name is problematical. Heales printed the place-name as Fecham, but according to information kindly provided by the Merton Historical Society it should be read as Pecham or Petham. The cartulary indicates that Hugh Maminot had the land in marriage with his wife Emma, and that Ralph gave it to Merton. Possibilities include Peckham in Camberwell, Surrey, where Gilbert (Maminot), bishop of Lisieux, is recorded as holding land in the Domesday Book, or else Pachesham in Leatherhead, Surrey, where Merton Priory is known to have later held land, or alternatively Petham in Kent.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

[Kevan L. Barton pointed out the contradiction between the identity of Geoffrey's wife given in the above account, and that given in volume 5, in November 2002. Andrew Lancaster provided further information in October 2020.
Item last updated: 27 December 2020.]

Volume 11, page 467, note o (continued on page 468):
Between 10 Aug. 1197 and 8 Mar. 1198 Geoffrey de Say II executed a charter confirming his father's grant [of the manor of Rickling to Geoffrey II's younger brother Geoffrey] (Idem, vol. ii, no. C2287). The confirmation is printed in full in Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxxiv, p. 181, and shows that Geoffrey II had an elder br. William, who was living at or after the birth of Alice de Vere's s. Geoffrey. There seems to be no evidence of the date of William's death, except that it was before 1 Jan. 1198 (?1198/9) (Round, Cal. Docs., no.280).

The confirmation referred to explicitly states that Geoffrey II's elder brother William was dead, so he must have died before the latest possible date of that document, namely 8 March 1197/8 (as stated by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117).

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 468:
GEOFFREY DE SAY II, 2nd but 1st surv. s. and h. by 1st wife, was b. probably about 1155. In 1180 in the account of the farm of the Vicomté of Arques he is acquitted in respect of a liability of 10s "for the land of Geoffrey de Sai which he had with the wife of Hugh de Periers."(e) In the same year he was amerced at the Forest Assize in respect of Hudwic' & Dodinton' (Ditton Priors, Salop); and, again in 1180, with the consent of his wife, he delivered to the prior of Wenlock his manor of Ditton Priors, which was her dower from Hugh de Periers.(f) In 1190 Michael Belet accounted for 100li to have right against him of the inheritance of his wife and to have his office.(g) In 1198 he was bailiff of Arques.(h)
Note e:
Stapleton, Mag. Rot. Scacc. Norm., vol. i, pp. cxxiv, 90.
Note f:
Eyton, Shropshire, vol. iii, p. 332.
Note g:
Pipe Roll, 2 Ric. I, p. 102. Michael had m. Emma, sister of Alice de Chesney; see p. 470, note "f" below.
Note h:
Stapleton, op. cit., vol. ii, p. cxxix. It has been assumed that this entry and the entries as to lands in Normandy which follow relate to Geoffrey II. If so, it was probably the same Geoffrey who in 1184 owed 33li 12s for 4 measures of wheat which he had for provisioning the castle of Gisors (D'Anisy, Mém. de la Soc. des Antiquaires de Normandie, vol. viii, p. 361).

As Geoffrey was a younger son of parents who were married after 1175, he was probably born around 1180 (see correction to p. 467 above). The references above from the period 1180-1190, and presumably also the one from 1198, must relate to his father, Geoffrey I. Michael Belet's wife Emma was the sister of Geoffrey I's wife.

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]

Volume 11, page 470:
He [Geoffrey de Say II (d. 1230)] m., 1stly, Alice, widow of Hugh DE PERIERS, and h. and possibly da. of John DE CHESNEY. He m., 2ndly, Margery, widow of (i) ... DE LA FERTÉ, (ii) Eudes DE DAMMARTIN (d. 1225), sis. and coh. of Will. BRIWERRE, by whom he was divorced.

Alice de Chesney was the wife of Geoffrey I de Say, not Geoffrey II (see correction to p. 467 above). The identity of Geoffrey II's first wife, the mother of his son and heir William, is unknown. Geoffrey was married to his second wife Margery by November 1225 [the quindene of St Martin, Michaelmas Term 9-10 Henry III; Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 12, pp. 295, 302].

[Item last updated: 11 February 2003.]